Phenolic Insulation Board for Cavity Walls

Author Message Stephen Wilson
Intermediate Member
Username: swilson

Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, - 08:25 am:    Hi all,

Has anyone out there had any experience using Phenolic Insulation Boards? I recently came across an ad for the product, which has an R-value of R-8 per inch, and can be used in cavity walls like any other insulation board. (Can also be used in NFPA 285 assemblies.)

As far as I can tell, Kingspan is the only company that markets it, under the trade name Kooltherm K8. Does anyone out there have experience using it on projects? With thermal preformance so much higher than your typical XPS or Polyiso, I'm wondering "what's the catch?" (Cost I'm sure, but I also wonder how it performs on-site in installation.) James Sandoz, AIA, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: jsandoz

Post Number: 313
Registered: 06-
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, - 08:47 am:    Stephen, type "phenolic insulation and corrosion" into a search engine and see what comes up. I remember several years back hearing that roofs with phenolic insulation and metal decks experienced corrosion of the deck when the roof leaked and the insulation got wet. Dave Metzger
Senior Member
Username: davemetzger

Post Number: 789
Registered: 07-
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, - 10:03 am:    I see no mention in the manufacturer's product data about aged U-value. I'd be leery about basing insulation thickness on the published values alone. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS
Senior Member
Username: michael_chusid

Post Number: 579
Registered: 10-


Posted on Wednesday, February 03, - 02:28 pm:    Phenolic insulation was introduced in the s by Koppers. Fantastic thermal performance. It was pulled from the market however due to long-term problems with performance. I don't recall the specifics. Perhaps Kingspan has solved the problems.

BTW, I was part of a consulting team advising Koppers. They asked me to write guide specs for the product using different styles of specifying: Proprietary, Performance, Descriptive, etc. It was a wonderful exercise that improved my skills as a specifier. Koppers got insight, too, into how to position and promote the product. Michael Chusid, RA FCSI CCS 1-818-219-
www.chusid.com www.buildingproduct.guru Paul Sweet (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, - 01:22 pm:    If I remember correctly the higher R value was right. As James Sandoz said it does attack metal when it gets wet. I would only consider it for locations that won't get wet. Cavities get wet, so it would probably corrode the brick ties or other veneer fasteners. ken hercenberg
Senior Member
Username: khercenberg

Post Number:
Registered: 12-


Posted on Wednesday, February 03, - 03:08 pm:    Wow. Koppers. I remember when they still had some great roofing systems.

As I recall the phenolic insulation corrosion issue first became a problem in Canada where it was much more widely used. Seems to me that the failures north of the border precluded its usage catching on in the US.

As many forensics articles have noted over the years, everything leaks given enough time. Perhaps using non-metallic ties and anchors is advisable when using this insulation since even vapor drive and condensation could possibly set it off if it's still an issue. John Bunzick
Senior Member
Username: bunzick

Post Number:
Registered: 03-
Posted on Tuesday, February 16, - 10:52 am:    I do remember problems with phenolic insulation when I was doing roof consulting work. I got curious, and found that phenolic seems to be currently available for piping insulation. For other applications, Kingspan reportedly has a formulation that reduces the acidity that caused the corrosion. Here's an interesting article. Paul Sweet (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted on Tuesday, February 16, - 04:40 pm:    Thanks for the article reference. It might be OK for hot water pipe insulation, but I'd want to see some long-term testing results before thinking of using it for chilled water pipe insulation. I've seen chilled water piping in humid locations eaten away because the foam rubber insulation wasn't properly sealed, and water vapor got to the pipes, condensed, and was trapped by the insulation, so it rusted the pipes from the outside. Stephen Wilson
Advanced Member
Username: swilson

Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-
Posted on Wednesday, February 17, - 10:54 am:    Thanks, all! Considering the previous generation of phenolic insulation boards was last used when I was in elementary school, no wonder I hadn't heard of the history.

It will be interesting to see how Kingspan's product performs over time. I noticed roof applications is conspicuously absent from their list of applications, so it sounds like they are trying to avoid that kind of liability again. The brick tie corrosion issue is a good question though. Ed Storer
Senior Member
Username: ed_storer

Post Number: 94
Registered: 05-
Posted on Sunday, June 06, - 08:06 pm:    I worked in Atlanta when One Atlantic Center (aka IBM Building) was constructed in the 's.

From Wiki: "One Atlantic Center was designed by Johnson/Burgee Architects. As associate architect, Heery International, Inc. produced the contract documents."

Koppers phenolic insulation was used in the granite-clad walls. I'm pretty sure that none of the fasteners for the stone anchorage penetrated the insulation.

I've never heard of any problems with the exterior of the building, so I guess it's not a problem after 30 years. Ed Storer, CSI Member Emeritus Curt Norton, CSI, CCS
Senior Member
Username: curtn

Post Number: 253
Registered: 06-


Posted on Wednesday, October 06, - 09:46 am:    I would suggest talking directly to Kingspan about this. I met with their rep and brought up the same issue. They stated that the chemistry is different now. I can't imagine a company would spend the money on NFPA 285 testing for endless assemblies if the chemistry would still corrode fasteners. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, October 29, - 02:58 pm:    Good Afternoon Everyone,

Thank you for your interest in Kooltherm (Phenolic) insulation. I would be more than happy to answer your questions on the NFPA 285 testing completed and the old Phenolic from the /'s that had corrosive problems. If you would like to discuss these topics, please me at .

Andrew Wilson
Kooltherm (Phenolic) Product Manager
Kingspan Insulation LLC

There is no definitive answer to this question. All four of our EWI external wall insulation systems provide benefits to their customers, some more suited to the needs and requirements of the project than others. Our technical team is always on hand with expert advice to suggest the best solution. So which will they suggest to you?

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The premier solution is Rockwool, a mineral wool composed of volcanic rock and compiled to form slabs in a similar way to that of candy floss. The standout feature of this product is its complete non-combustibility, having achieved a Euroclass rating of A1. Rockwool can withstand temperatures of up to 1,000ºC, prevent the spread of fires, and not emit any toxic emissions. The acoustic insulation and dual density composition are further benefits to an already high performance system. Rockwool is also breathable! In turn, this allows trapped moisture in the existing wall to pass through the insulation and dissipate into the atmosphere, assuming a breathable Silicone render is used.

K5

Kingspan Kooltherm K5 offers a highly effective and space-saving solution. The rigid phenolic core of the K5, bracketed by a glass tissue board, offers excellent thermal capabilities. Space saving features of the K5 make it the ideal choice for narrow passageways and alleys. The high compressive strength also ensures that any risk of mechanical compression and impact is minimised. External wall insulation as a rule reduces the households carbon footprint, with K5 boards also having an ozone depletion potential of zero.

EPS

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XPS or extruded polystyrene board is a high-density board that can be used for various applications on buildings, including DPC insulation, extending concrete window sills or providing insulation backing where EPS is not suitable to use. Being compact and robust means that XPS is easy to store and reduces the risk of water penetration.

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  Rockwool K5 EPS XPS Euroclass rating A1 0B E E Composition Dual density mineral wool Phenolic expanded polystyrene, graphite extruded polystyrene, silver boards Acoustic insulation &#; &#; &#; &#; Thermal conductivity 0.036W/(m2K) 0.020W/(m2K) 0.032W/(m2K) 0.034W/(m2K) R-value 1.39W/(m2K) 2.5W/(m2K) 1.97W/(m2K) 3.33W/(m2K) (100mm) Density 110kg/m3 35kg/m3 15-35kg/m3 32-35kg/m3 Water vapour resistivity 1.2% water absorption 300MN.s/g.m 145-238MN.s/g.m   Compressive strength 10 kPa 120kPa 70kPa 130kPa

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