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The Business Side of Timber Framing
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04:23 PM
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Ron Mansour
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I&#;ve been told by some of my TF friends that the business aspect of timber framing is the most difficult, and I surely have to agree. Given that, I though I&#;d float some questions to you all out there that have been on my mind for some time.
1) When first starting out with your business, what marketing tool did you find to be most effective in getting the word out?
2) What factor has played a larger role in keeping a continuous flow of business for you, print/media advertising or &#;word-of-mouth&#;?
3) To my way of thinking, people don&#;t NEED a timber frame, and it&#;s a niche market within the construction industry, thus creating a much smaller pool of potential clients. Have you found it to be a common occurrence where you&#;ve lost jobs or found it necessary to lower bids in an effort to sway folks who pull out the, &#;Oh, I-could-just-get-Joe Shmoe-to-stick-frame-this-for-a-lot-less&#; card?
4) Have there been periods where you just finished your last project, there is nothing on the dockets, and you are wondering, &#;what the heck am I going to do now?&#;
5) Are there any measures that you have taken (or can take?) to assure the long term future success of your business?
6) Is finding clients who want a timber frame a constant year-to-year worry for you?
Thanks to any and all who want to contribute.
Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
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10:11 PM
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GeorgiaG
Gabel
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Ron,
There haven't been many succesful conversations here on the forum about business. Not trying to discourage, it just seems difficult to get people to open up in such a public place. I know for a fact some of my clients have read what I've written here. Things that may be said easily sitting around at a Guild conference don't seem to be so easy to commit to the permanence and accessibility of a public forum.
That being said,
1)It's hard to say. I think you have to count on it taking several years and several different approaches to "get your name out there" to the point that people just sort of know about you and accept you as an established business.
2)Yes. I think you need both. The word of mouth jobs tend to be best for a lot of reasons.
3)Yes. This used to be very common a couple of years ago when so many people were building at (or above) the limit of what they could afford. This is an interesting topic. A friend of mine, Adrian Jones, wrote a letter in one of the last few issues of the Guild Journal dealing with this topic. His point is that we (timber framers) need to find a way to be actually be relevant, and not just purveyors of expensive eye candy.
4)Yes
5)Like any business -- keep overhead low, stay out of debt, make a solid plan and revisit and revise it regularly, make sure every customer is happy.
More specific to our company, we've tried to develop skills that are fairly uncommon even among timber frame companies. That's been a two edged sword, in that the market for some of those things is so small it often doesn't even seem to exist. But when a really funky project does come along that is a good fit for us we certainly have an advantage. While we've specialized within the timber framing world, we've also diversified recently by merging with another established family business that makes millwork, flooring, and furniture out of reclaimed heart pine. It's not a real change in that both businesses have operated out of the same facility for years and there was plenty of overlap (equipment, skills, even customers). Our main goal is to continue to sell more to each customer -- sell floors to a timber frame customer, etc. I think that is a good business strategy for when you have fewer customers than you used to.
6)Yes. Now more than ever.
Gabel
www.holderbros.com
Gabel
Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
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10:50 PM
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D L Bahler
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Two Thing I would suggest
1. As Gabel says, keep your overhead low. Preferably, way way low, in the basement in nice. This is super important when starting out, especially in times like these when you don't know how much work you are going to have. You don't want a lot of expenses over your head to constantly be sinking your money into. Lower overhead means lower price to the customer and higher prophet margins. It's one instance where there really is a win-win scenario (most things that claim to be win-win are wrong, lying, or a scam)
One way to do this is to do things, at least at first, with as few of tools you can get away with, and learn how to be proficient at using hand tools. You can 'upgrade' (if you call it that) to fancy gizmos as you become more successful. Don't think you have to have the latest and greatest of everything, most of the time that's a waste of money, and just gives you more overhead than you want at first.
Also consider this: Is it necessary to have a large shop to build things? You could, in reality, get along just fine without it. You can do this by doing things the way people did things for thousands of year, laying out the frame right there on site, eliminating the need for a large layout floor. Wasted space is wasted money, keep that in mind.
I realize that may not always be practical. Some times you have to make a frame for a job in the next state, for example. But even then, a layout could conceivably be done in an open field or parking lot or some such. Just a thought. If you are really good and have faith in your ability to cut joints, you don't need a big floor at all, and can just do any joint adjustment on site (that's how they used to do it, so why couldn't it work now?) I know there are still framers out there who don't have much of a shop at all. Look at Amish traditions for example. (Myself being Beachy Amish-Mennonite, I have some connection to that tradition and know a little about it)
And another thing I might suggest, which a few timber framers out there might think of as some kind of a heresy, is that, is there any rule out there that says you can
only
build timber frames? If Sammy says that he can get so and so to build him a stick frame for so much less and you can't come down into his price range with a timber frame, then couldn't you give him the option of building a stick frame for him? I know it may seem like lowering yourself but these are tough times, and compromises are some times necessary. I am in a unique situation myself where I can build timber frames, but I also work for another guy doing general carpentry. Sure it's not as good, but I enjoy any kind of construction work, and I certainly prefer stick framing to sitting around and watching the money float away.
And one last word of advice, don't let anybody tell you its foolishness to start a business in this economy. Have you ever noticed how many businesses that are around today were started in the 30's? At least around here, it's quite a few. Businessmen who start a business in a tough economy are going to have a much more mature outlook on things than those who do so in easy times, and most important they are going to have to learn how to run a good business. If you can make a go at it right now, then you are going to be successful. period. And I suggest using the economy to your advantage. Sell people on something that lasts and holds its value. Drive home the point that they are loosing out to inflation by putting their money up in banks, and they are loosing out to nature by building a stick frame. Sell a product that is as much practical as it is an investment.
And the thing you most do not want to hear, be willing to loose now and then, and be willing to do with less for a while. If you want to do good later, you have got to sacrifice a little now. If you want to be comfortable now, then you are going to have to sacrifice a lot later. It's tough, but that's life. And that's what so many Americans are learning right now.
Like any good German, I am very very analytical and extremely details-oriented. Sometimes I study things and try to figure them out TOO much!
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Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
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12:22 AM
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TIMBEAL
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1. Word of mouth
2. Word of mouth
3. When the stick frame card is played I fold and move on. There is a lot of stick framer out there, I would rather build a timbered building on speculation.
4. Not to often, but more so these past couple of years.
5. Keep learning new techniques, such as Plumb Line Scribe, don't be afraid of new approaches to your work.
6. I wouldn't say it is a worry, but in some ways, like making the bills, it is. I am about as small as you can get. I often think of making things even simpler, in hopes to shorten the bills and ease the worry of where the next job will come from. Insurance, registration, maintenance, and fuel are a few of the things I would like to reduce. It is either that or get bigger, but alas I am not a paper work kind of guy. I am already a hand tool shop so tooling is not a issue.
Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
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03:58 AM
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Hartford,OhioR
Ron Mansour
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Gabel,
Regarding your first paragraph, I anticipated there may be some reluctance to respond, and I certainly understand. I tried to phrase the questions with the thought in mind that folks other than professional timber framers are reading these forums also, and I left out the potentially taboo topic of the financial side of things.
Very, very interesting perspectives from you all. Great ideas, insight, and advice.
DL, I hear you on the issue of overhead. I've made many mistakes along the way (learned from them, never to repeat them), but thankfully, one that I did not make was getting into debt with items that I may have wanted, but recognized that I did not really need. Like Tim, keeping my business small and learning to work with and be proficient with a small array of hand tools was always my first priority, and I've stayed true to that. Practical and frugal.
Hope to hear from more of you.
Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
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04:32 AM
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D L Bahler
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I am amazed when I sit down to look at numbers (cost benefit analysis, it's your best friend in business) to find out how many power tools simply ARE NOT WORTH THE MONEY. A lot of them don't save you any real amount of time in the long run (assuming you are a small business and not a big factory) when you consider maintenance, setup, adjustment, etc. etc. And even if they do save a bit of time, they don't save you money. They take electricity to run, need new parts now and then, need new cutters/chains/belts/paper/whatever, and ultimately need replaced after a few years. You have to do a LOT of work all the time for a lot of this gizmos to pay for themselves. And on top of that, hand tools are quieter, easier on your body in a lot of cases (vibration does nasty things to your bones)and more enjoyable to use. Sometimes I just like to put down the electric drill and use the old brace on a mortise or two...
I find it is the case that if you really know what you are doing and have good sharp tools, hand tools can often be faster (that's right) than power tools. The big thing is they just aren't as easy, and they require a lot more skill. Modern Americans don't like things that take time to master. We want instant results. A master with an axe and chisel can outdo anyone with a 16 inch saw or or chain mortiser. I've seen it.
Let history be your teacher, too. That is likely one of the reasons you are into TF in the first place, but don't ever let that fall out of sight. Learn from the past, learn from the cultures that still do it. Let's not try to reinvent the wheel here. (Sometimes I feel like we are doing just that). and most important, never, NEVER, limit yourself to one set of ideas and one way of doing things. The master at any craft is the one with the most insight, the one who sees things that others don't and innovates. And if you are not striving to be a master at your craft, then you are no craftsman at all. It is find, by the way, to strive for something that you don't think you will ever accomplish. In fact, I think the best goals we can have are the ones that we will never quite reach, the ones that ALWAYS leave us with something more to reach for...
Sorry if I get a little philosophical. But then maybe I am not. I think it is important to be a craftsman, and I think any good craftsman needs a solid philosophy. That's why I love wood, and that's why I love geometry, and that's why I love any way of combining the two...
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Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
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03:38 PM
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Ron Mansour
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DL,
While the hand-tool vs power tool debate is largely a matter of personal preference and how you choose to run your business, I personally would align myself with your philosophy and I agree with virtually every word you said.
Just want to say, since you've jumped on board here, you've sure posted some very interesting stuff. Wish I could say that I've fully grasped all that you've wrote (some stuff went over my head and gained speed), but still very interesting nonetheless.
Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
Re: Ron Mansour]
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12:04 AM
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Becket, MAT
timberwrestler
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I&#;ve been told by some of my TF friends that the business aspect of timber framing is the most difficult, and I surely have to agree. Given that, I though I&#;d float some questions to you all out there that have been on my mind for some time.
1) When first starting out with your business, what marketing tool did you find to be most effective in getting the word out?
2) What factor has played a larger role in keeping a continuous flow of business for you, print/media advertising or &#;word-of-mouth&#;?
3) To my way of thinking, people don&#;t NEED a timber frame, and it&#;s a niche market within the construction industry, thus creating a much smaller pool of potential clients. Have you found it to be a common occurrence where you&#;ve lost jobs or found it necessary to lower bids in an effort to sway folks who pull out the, &#;Oh, I-could-just-get-Joe Shmoe-to-stick-frame-this-for-a-lot-less&#; card?
4) Have there been periods where you just finished your last project, there is nothing on the dockets, and you are wondering, &#;what the heck am I going to do now?&#;
5) Are there any measures that you have taken (or can take?) to assure the long term future success of your business?
6) Is finding clients who want a timber frame a constant year-to-year worry for you?
Thanks to any and all who want to contribute.
Ron,
A lot of the same responses, but...
1. Word of mouth for me as well. Also, I should have finally have my website up in a bit. But if you want to build only TFs above sf in Vail, then there are some more conventional marketing sources. I think that that's one of the unfortunate things about the TF business--that (for the most part) the face of TFing is 2 glossy magazines and the business council.
2. same as 1
3. I certainly agree that people don't always need a TF. And that's why I don't always TF. I'd say if you feel that way, that you're going to have a hard time being honest with your clients in trying to always sell them a TF. For example, a client may be interested in a hybrid timber frame (stick walls and roofs)(perhaps to save money), and this system may very well be better suited to the client's needs.
If a TF/SIP combination is the most appropriate for that situation, then that's what I'll build. But I always talk over enclosure systems (SIP, wrap and strap, infill framing, outfill framing, natural systems, superinsulation, etc.) with the client. If you're building an insulated structure, the TF is really only a small portion of a much bigger picture.
4. There certainly have been slow times, and I agree with everyone on the low overhead. Being flexible and not overly specialized helps in filling in between jobs. Take those slow periods to learn new techniques--practice scribing or hewing or design or accounting or whatever you need.
5. Do the best work that you can, and be honest with your clients and people you work with. A lot of just general communication stuff. I GC jobs, so I always want to know what my subs need from me before they come, and while they're on site. Pay people fairly and on time. Basically just don't screw people over.
6. Many of my jobs last for months so I generally stay busy. I've found my clients want a TF for a few reasons: aesthetics, community building (mainly through the raising), the tradition, romanticism, and the prominence (visibility) of the structure itself. I really don't have the type of client looking to impress with the height of their ceiling. If you can sell what works with what you want to build and what your client wants built, then you're all set.
Brad
Ron,A lot of the same responses, but...1. Word of mouth for me as well. Also, I should have finally have my website up in a bit. But if you want to build only TFs above sf in Vail, then there are some more conventional marketing sources. I think that that's one of the unfortunate things about the TF business--that (for the most part) the face of TFing is 2 glossy magazines and the business council.2. same as 13. I certainly agree that people don't always need a TF. And that's why I don't always TF. I'd say if you feel that way, that you're going to have a hard time being honest with your clients in trying to always sell them a TF. For example, a client may be interested in a hybrid timber frame (stick walls and roofs)(perhaps to save money), and this system may very well be better suited to the client's needs.If a TF/SIP combination is the most appropriate for that situation, then that's what I'll build. But I always talk over enclosure systems (SIP, wrap and strap, infill framing, outfill framing, natural systems, superinsulation, etc.) with the client. If you're building an insulated structure, the TF is really only a small portion of a much bigger picture.4. There certainly have been slow times, and I agree with everyone on the low overhead. Being flexible and not overly specialized helps in filling in between jobs. Take those slow periods to learn new techniques--practice scribing or hewing or design or accounting or whatever you need.5. Do the best work that you can, and be honest with your clients and people you work with. A lot of just general communication stuff. I GC jobs, so I always want to know what my subs need from me before they come, and while they're on site. Pay people fairly and on time. Basically just don't screw people over.6. Many of my jobs last for months so I generally stay busy. I've found my clients want a TF for a few reasons: aesthetics, community building (mainly through the raising), the tradition, romanticism, and the prominence (visibility) of the structure itself. I really don't have the type of client looking to impress with the height of their ceiling. If you can sell what works with what you want to build and what your client wants built, then you're all set.Brad
www.uncarvedblockinc.com
Re: The Business Side of Timber Framing
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05:28 AM
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Hartford,OhioR
Ron Mansour
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All,
Just wanted to toss out some very sincere thanks to those of you who stepped up and answered my mini business survey. I realize some (well, most) of the questions may have leaned toward the invasive side (given that this is a public forum), and I sure understand most shying away from this topic. But you did anyway and your responses were much appreciated and all very enlightening.
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